Podcast Hotel – Diversifying Ecosystem of Online Video – Liveblogging

Mary Hodder – Moderator
Kaliya –
Irina Slutsky
Nicole Simon

Think about whats out there in the ecosystem – what holes exist
the oriental and the occidental
The default and the other

oriental – term to desc the whole section of the world, where you could get killed, where we dont understand it

Map from 1620 from Morocco

map lays out – east and west
way everyone thinks about it
take ourselves out of normal situation
only ever live in the default
totally lose in lots of ways

1/2 of dabble engineers women
1/ of dabble from outside of US
have more of the other into what they are trying to make
the non-default
adds to what they are doing

decided to frame discussion into the default and the other

discuss the culture, the holes, the tools, cultural norms (online) and probs with current toolsets that expose or don’t expose
awareness can fix alot

List of holes
alexa – way alexa can reveal certain things
technorati link sys and link counting
Neilsen ratings
time difference (outside of the valley is the other place)
language and location
how do we get out of pure system that values metrics and measurements and embody qualitative values
tools for serendipity – discover things you never knew about

feel like you are in the other

blogger, podcaster
from Germany
discuss feeling in the other later

Irina Slutsky
classically trained journalist
studied issues about the other in Columbia Journalism

Kaliya – Identity Woman
has res alien card in her wallet
lives in and is part of this culture but it is not her culture
fortunate to work in the niche of the industry that is welcoming – Digital Identity
discuss culture and what we can do to inc. inclusivity

Josh Paul – CEO of co that does video on the net
tech perspective
released some software
blogged about
deaf community blogged about it –
he reached out – how do we use this tech in another way
no reason why he can’t place products in video (why not someone doing ASL in the video!)
people open to those ideas
as a creator, putting something out there and letting the market decide

being more open helps
does podtech have any contests?
Irina – yes
Nicole – GMT time is what she knows – time difference

Mary – Dabble
appaled when she had contest and lawyers said it could only be US residents
because of the ways the laws work – there are a lot of built in ways we make definitions – some legal, some social – cant change the ways the laws work for the contest
can build the architectures to make them more open (location diff or time diff) – openness and opportunity
cant give things to people
not men vs women – open vs closed
too easy for us to not think about it

create inclusivity for users

f2f events and how to make them more inclusive
we have dinner together in the evening
people sit with people they wouldnt otherwise sit with
forced cross pollination
diff that the reception at a conference
mingle – what do you know
one practical thing
creating space and social contact for new people to get connected

made the list of holes
things that they observe or missing or closed off
every one had the reaction of wow
down the list

the alien
top ranking traffic tools announced as the measurement
only counts visits from the toolbar and primarily US users
american company and competitor – alexa caters to US-centric audience
very specific comparison
alexa numbers – german blog has 1/10 the visitors
totally opposite
a lot of people put value on the ranking whenit is bogus

Alexa – matters to her in context
Alexa wants to be ubiquitous
alexa – super important to vc’s
as a company – building tools and pushed to using this one tool – you are then in a position to put a lot of emphasis on it – treat it as the worldview – narrow set of measurements that only matters in a certain context

google analytics – good impression of wheere users are coming from
surprised the # of intl users on the sites and podcasts
never saw before

Neilsen changing the way they are measuring
from # of hits to time on the website
leaving out viewership for tv ratings (students, ethnic groups, single moms who work)
big shift of trying to be inclusive in the statistics
good they were more aware and not there yet
haven’t figured out the right thing

use it to find or link or ID
she worked at technorati early on
use the term authority to desc. their concept of counting links
lots of links = lots of authority
diff ways of linking – some groups – early adopter
doesnt reflect the conversational middle
blog her – 2.5 yrs ago
all these women who were furious because they felt it was oppressive
b/c there was a choice iin the tool about emphasis – and called authority – so angry

how companies can be more inclusive and be more comfortable to use the service

make money
only way they can judge and get technorati link count – and it is low because they dont get links but give tons of value

default culture not where everyone else is from
we make assumptions on what is obvious to us – anatomy of a blog
need to practice “who do we want to make sure gets this”
new audiences, new people – whatever we are passionate about
ignoring the fact we have cult. defaults we arent aware of
lot to be said for hieroglyphs

Ze Frank – use of life vests
from 2 pages to a couple of pictures
user interface
AT&T used to travel with film reel how to dial a phone
is it a matter of putting out video tutorials or finding some image or hieroglyph to communicate
cross lang barriers because of it

great that it is being translated
for getting the jokes when you can read it
not only about companies
only talk about daily life – boring, not good, not higher purpose
videoblogs help nicole understand culture – pop, reality, etc.
nothing to think about – out of context
doesnt need to be companies
be resourceful to someone
what is good what is not good
imp for some to realize – may seem trivial

another thing – translate rocketboom to english with subtitles

Josh – dotsub implementation is great first step
what comes out the other end?
what happens when we get other languages down

Nicole –
most translations useless “raining cats and dogs”
more than just basic translation
steps in the right direction

Google – buying 411 service – Nicole needs to understand what 411 means

few things where nicole gets left out – because of language, context

podcasting iss great resource to be inclusive

taught to go into a company and see if there is a non-white male person to interview
hard to do in the valley 🙂

interviewing or doing something – keep it in mind
imp to do for inlusivity

problem of authority
who is to decide your video is the one to watch about x
how do you solve the problem
if genuinely skewed – b/c of sociological difference – how do we go about it?
want an authority figure

we vest those services with the authority b/c we pay attention to them and give thempower
most people in the blogosphere could care less about the top 100
how do we see those clusters and pay attention to people in those diff niches
what Social Media is about and get away

technorati only watches blogs

Mary –
when you write an algorithm – there is a viewpoint – no technology doesnt have a viewpoint or bias
top 100 the top 100 they know about and have discovered

choice – their system makes – livejournal blogs blogroll is on a diff page than main page – technorati doesnt index that

Aliya – seek out voices that are new
how are we making allies of the new folks
everyone is being more aware of those things
not just the other in the corner

if we want to be more inclusive = more tools, more time references, translations services, etc.

Cool – PodCorps.org

Just caught a presentation from Doug Kaye (IT Conversations, Conversations Network) at Podcast Hotel about a new program he has announced called PodCorps.org. They are looking to create a community of stringers to capture, organize and share video and audio conversations (town hall meetings, club meetings, small conferences, speeches, interviews, etc.).

They are working with:
http://eventful.com for an events database and give event organizers the option to request stringers to attend and record the event, OurMedia will handle the organization and serving of the content
Internet Archive will handle the hosting

The idea is that stringers sign up for the program and list their location and what they do (audio, video). Event organizers tag their events. PodCorps acts as a dating service putting the two together.

They want to grow their stringer base first. They want to have the network in place before they can start setting up events with people. Chicken and Egg – they need stringers to attract events, and events to attract stringers.

here is the url:

Podcast Hotel – Whats New In Podcasting – Liveblogging

Doug Kaye
From the Labs

Gigavox Media
one of the leaders in the podcasting space

DK – one of the older and oldest podcasters

podcaster before there was podcasting
IT COnversations in 2003

MP3s and RSS feeds and interviews
IT Con is owned by Gigavox Media
produced 2000 programs
60 programs a month
mult channels
podcast academy

Conversations Network
Social Innovation conversations

Very Informal thing
slapped together from other slides

some of the non profit and profit tools they are working on
anything we want to talk about
strong bg in audio
software development, radio

podcast and portable media expo – late sept – “Help, fix my audio”

showing how to edit, noise reduction, fileteiring editing

Which is Louder?

Interesting problem with videotaping something like this
when you want to record a spoken word event – put the camin the back of the room, put the cam into the soundboard

panel discussion
you get varying sound levels
mic variances, gain, lots of direct sound in the room
on a podcast it is awful
audio engineer – ok
by yourself – problem

Giga – produce a lot of interview programs
team of 55 people working oin the interviews
dont want to waste their time

Bruce Sharp and son – developed the levelator
free for all

can you assemble components automatically from components
ID at the top of the show
more intro
assembled auto from components
trouble hearing most of those cuts

build a show and do it automatically – do it at the same loudness
what we did

whats the standard
We asked
podcasters, audio engineers, radio engineers
answer – there isnt one – made up there own

Peak Normalization (common – audacity)
takes any signal and brings the peaks up to what you want
needs RMS normalization
analyzes the density of the waveform
soundforge and expensive apps built in

Levelator – put it out for free

people used to think Giga was a content company – but really a tech company

Levelator – app, free – gigavox.com – runs on windows, mac (intel and power pc and linux) – take uncompressed sound file, drag and drop – will smooth out the peaks from one speaker to the next
designed for spoken word events
not compressor, or limiter – not the noise gate
not in a analog chain

uneven levels WITHIN a podcast
building mathematical models of speakers to figure out what to do with the audio
Time and skill intensive to solve
auto drag and drop
free to all

Does levelator only work with uncompressed (wav and aiff?)

doesnt work with mp3 files –
one thing it has to do is make sound no worse that what you give it
mp3 – decode to uncompresss, run, and reencode
no way you can make it sound as good as the original

if recording as mp3 – record as highest bitrate possible
sound file will not sound as good if you do that

do no harm

trying to avoid additional decode recode step

dont support bad habits

Gigavox Audio Lite
relatively new
give it a try
prodcast production system
webbased service
not downloadable
first of a series
for video, all sorts of things
opening up the itconversations platform
avail for free to the individual
save time in producing podcasts
inc automated show assembly
instert spots and promos
podcasts with long shelf life
still popular
programs from gladwell – tipping point
those sponsors dont want the spots from 3 years ago in the new shows
in a prog thats heard today
rebuild every show in the archive every night
produce show in components
audio or video components same from show to show
decoupling production tasks
editing audio – put credits in for website content
hasnt been done yet

Unintended Consequences

SHow assembly optioins
staic programs – burned in components
On the fly assembly – (expensvie)
Does On Demand (giga)
push new version 1x a night when content has changed or if there is demand

15 components in their stuff

typical IT script

build shows based on components
GVU uploader – client side app
Episode editor
most imp screen in the system
components made to dev this app
play components in real time
campaign manager
config campaigns

massively scalable
poster child for amazon web services

$64 on infrastructure

encourage to go to gigavox.com – get levelator – sign up to be in the beta program for audio lite
will like a lot

COnversations Network
exec dir = Doug Kaye
events all over the world b/c no one is recording them
reach 6k people
100/1 ratio for these conferences
capture produce and dist spoken word content for free
curated content
have an arrangement for producer
professional post production and publish it
vision – grassroots version of this

what is a media rockstar
content far from rockstar world
record debates from 2008 elections
not just presidential – local, school board, all that are going on
tech conferences, lectures, meetings
how to capture?
monday announced
simple idea
volunteer team
2k people in 6 months
people with ability to go out and record audio and video in the community
decent job of capturing
post production then
audio video writers and producers
go to podcorps.org – where located and what skills are
working with eventful.com – captures events data
events that want to be recorded – tagged podcorps –
sys looks for events and matches to people who record

all volunteer
give back to local community
would like opp to do something good
how can podcasting be something we give back
go to podcorps .org
no obligation
eveent popup – email message to let us know
challenges – audio feed from soundboard and stuff

very simple

Eventful.com, OurMedia.org, Internet Archive
building database of stringers first
will likely find none
events find you

audio and video

events contact – work out the agreement

gigavox audio lite – just production – no serving – not solving distro problem

smart delivery – cool
pub URL or a “c name”
goes to their redirectors
gathering stats at program level and individual component
sponsor wants 100k impressions
can give report on the number of times
things in archive 1yr old – why push to ftp
redirection to old show – havent put it on their server yet

Podcast Hotel – Building a fanbase – Liveblogging

Moderator – Nate PAgel – Poddaddies
John Hartman – Feedia
Chris Pirillo – Lockergnome
Colin Brumelle – Mixed content – Bryght.com
devs communities around musicians and artists
Robert Scales – Rain City Studios – Drupal dev shop in Canada – creates communities – config, themeing, and web communities since 04 – askaninja, kidsworld,
Ian Beatty – Project Opus


CB –
what does bldg online communities meas?
couple of rules
transparency is the new black
more you let them see the more you let them see the content
can empathize
build bigger relationships with your fans

NP – look at the rockstars – Ze Frank, RBoom – from the heart

BC – the best way to succeeed is to create compelling content constantly
as a developer rolling out features is an example
getting things out there
in the past people used to say qual not quant
Stalin – quant has a certain quant all its own

when you talk about community – you cant create it – it creates itself
have tools to facilitate
set up UStream
set up chatrooms
launched another chatroom on IRC
95 people in that chat ready to ask questions and interact
acapulco earthquake example
community built the USTream page for pirillo – having fun, interacting
updates on page and chatroom
easy way to switch feeds
starting something and letting community take part is key
not trying to broadcast out to the community – wants to interact with them
doing things live and produced content is far more exciting way than podcasting or videocasting (without a live audience)

really focused on the business side
help orgs figure the space out
immediately the CEO – make me a video and put me on the web
found the frameworks and structures arent quite there
lot of COs out there seeing traction
lot of companies not ready – dont have the framework in place
manage and deal wiht all this content
how to best provide these solutions – from CP to Intel
put it together in packages

NP – who comes to you?
JH – diff sizes
project with Intel
7 episodes in a pilot project
black monday
other clients – attensa, software companies, innovative and viral spaces
large sports franchise
large implmentations – enterprise solutions for hardware – social media and blogging tools

NP – CEO of poddaddies
up there – first cust blipTV
share revs with users
get third of revs
ind video pub and artist
int in content creation and dist stuff and get it out there

NP – QUestion – MySPace and YouTube are options – what else can you do – best ways of dist? getting paid, access to people
CP – twitter great for org flashmobs
build followers
using those tools for best adv – if paying attention – will be living in the now
doing things diff – using it to see trends (RScoble)

CB – staying on top of where everyone is
resisting using twitter – some people
need to let go
listen to community
be part of it
invest in it

every year – new social networking tool
facebook exploding
new trends – question of patience
loving flickr
go above to connect to upcoming.org
use and build on each social networking apps
crosslink on a dozen sites or communities – build googlejuice, ability to be found, pagerank
be patient – utilize, build foundation, use OpenID, go seamless
no standard for passwords

NP –
patient and consistent lets you grow
dont have to be on myspace and youtube exclusively
read EndUserLicense agreements – its a contract
control the rights
know where your stuff is going
applies to you
keep ownership
not a bad idea – post something on youtube and elsewhere
interesting place to test viability
general thoughts of MySPace and YouTube

RS –
lots of platforms
adds timecodes (Viddler)
put tags inline with content
you have options and solutions
you can always go somewhere else with better terms
biggest, but not necessarily best
million small nice communities
going from biggest to best not always the best way to do it
small gatherings and extend from there
whatever you are interested in and passionate about

amazing things going on
nonlinear int experience
commenting video inside of vid
not looking for straight line
ways to interact
things with ABC – a lot of their stuff online
buying ads on terrestrial and online
ads online are more web based, interactive
changing the way we consume media

NP – how about making money?
distribution, sure – but want to be a rockstar?\

JH – finding sponsors
Podtech and Scoble example
unil you have the audience – lot of ad svces workign in conjunction with vid and audio
Ex – podcaster news
5 min
specific futuristic topic
when the ad guys listened to the shows – audience share was small compared to the guys talking about lost
craft and focus of what content is will affect monetization
entertainment, music see better ad revs

RS – thats changed
its a work of love
do it b/c you want to do it in the first place
aska ninja – they busted their behinds getting it out and growing community
in june – new website – added features – added UGS options
ad revenue minimal – hard to sustain hosting and design
patience and plan of action to execute
paying off now – took time and investment of effort to make rev to make it work well to continue
when you enter in that sort of venture – be patient
fans will want to work with you
pay your dues
ask a ninja – good example

NP – John Batelle – Fed Media
doing a lot of things
internet rockstar in 1.5 years possible – not so in music
not a get rich quick scheme – takes time – be consistent, do show
every day = every day or just do fridays

CP – Live has sucked ERice in again

Eric Rice – live youtube
havent see what would happen with passion and pop of youtube and made it live and realtime
all the fun and pain of youtube – make it live
what killed podcasting for ER was doing a live show
be on the move constantly
spirit of podcasting died – seriously affected how we make media
paradigm shift – rss on demand
people did the opposite of our idealism is about (RSS adoption)
exception to internet rockstardom
go to a random mall in america – bring up Robert Scoble – no one knows or care
indicative of the echo chamber
YouTube – owns the content sucks – dont own you – work around it
YT – oppressive terms of service could be a good thing
the personality as the product or the commodity

NP – questions

Question – an overall def of what you consider and internet rockstar to be?
NP – rockstar – successful doing what they are doing in the internet world in general – all about having dist, viewwers, community – doesnt necessarily mean celebrity
SHow on bliptv – good night burbank – no one knows who they are – put it out there, and got what they wanted – about building a community first
internet rockstar successful doing stuff oin the internet

WHats the measure of success?
CP – largely depends
hard to compare with someone else – no direct correlation
level of celeb is never defined the same by individuals
everyone has difff measurement

BC – nature of celeb is changing
long tail flattens hit driven economy
not created by machine, but from the ground up
pay your dues and get noteriety

readers that are listening and communicating, back and forth and excchange = rockstar

maintaining a relationship more important

Internet ROckstar – deplorable – we are talking about community leaders
community – saying – if comm is 5 people and they look to you as a leader – and they yelp a restaurant – you are a community leader

terminology changes – WTF outloud

toolss come in handy b/c you have influence
more cool than saying you are an alpha geek

ben brown – internet rockstar

interesting communities – digg party, viable, make magazine – if they cant translate into real world, then a nebulous thing much like community manager is nebulous

questions in the balcony stage

comparing Ustream to Youtube – whats the core differentiator?

BC – the music world – live is best – engage the response from audience and shapes what you create
no way a live stream wouldnt have more interactiving
and you can edite taped later – live – screw up and move on

working on it – capturing the last 12 hrs they have got
idea of capturing video, sponsor crawl and chat at the same time
done it and putting a finer point on it
wrapping drupal – to put a community on it

soon – battle of others
UStream allows you to embed it on your page
YT has reach and community
using youtube to drive to live stream

money thing – no one talking in depth
put forth an idea – isnt it for the short term simple – whether site of needlepoint or edutainment – about brand integrated entertainment as alt advertiser

integration opps come up and patron subsidizes the work – immediate way to monetize
rev gen to cover expenses and lifestyle – need community and clickthrus – need traffic – that is the labor of love

community on day one – CP did it
CP – would approach sponsor and translate the passion
show the love – create a relationship
passion can makes things happen
if you can find smart partners to complete the other side of the puzzle you will make success
leverage the assets you have
wheres the rest of it – where are you going, showing , does it fit into a master plan – leverage the things you have

get substantial arrangement

a lot on faith – faith in chris, the product – passion

NP – you need to focus on show and community – be consistent first and worry about the money later

Podcast Hotel – Andrew Barron – Liveblogging


How to look into the future
how to look for certain indicators to help you determine path

interesting – tech based medium right now
alot of us have tech angle – not just the content
from tech standpoint we can progress and see whats coming

Broad ideas, and specific ideas

get some nuggets out of this

related to space and time – his philosophy

Intro of rocketboom

“WHat happens when you can dist video to anyone?”

dist –
on website, off website

Proximity – all about being near or far
before tech it was all about dist of moving (info, you) from one point or another
would take long time for info to move (physicall)
then we write – books, info
democratization of media beginning with guttenburg press
telescope – imp point – once you can bring things close, ideas change
exchange of info is important
gives us a major advantage
growth of electricity – tesla
getting info out thru tv, radio
revolution in terms of getting info faster
source of content and entertaining, useful

Now – Digital

incredible and daunting to get info so quickly
Media – big 4 (big 3 + PBS)
had control over all of the messages

as a kid could make his own videos, but couldnt really distribute it

cable – boom in offering of content and information
still trad media – just keeps growing with the brands and media

now we can compete
web2.0 in Asia – a lot going there – so much out there it is taken for granted

where are we now?
read-write web
used to be a static web page
company info old days – static, never changing
blogging – imp to be dynamic info

moving away from pageviews – AJAX, engagement, lack of refresh

Media Democracy
old days – needed someone to pull you up to make it to the summit (get broadcasted) (see photo)

now – your moms blog

popularity – how much content
a lot of content not popular, going on and on
one show the most popular show based on numbers (zero sum)
only few #1s

used to be – your mom had compelling content, wanted it on tv, up the ladder
now sys allows your mom to get up there without the big media cos
something there that all agree is the most popular at that moment

big popularity is false pop – based on decisions of initial filtering of small group vs what is actually popular

all kinds of controls and things to make it unpure

top-down hierarchy – old school
now – dist community – in place now – connections between each other allow for content to rise up

technorati graph based on most popular conversations
wouldnt have happened without our dist network
wouldnt have gotten the reach on their own

long ways to go in terms of the growth
pie chart – red – how many posting on blogs
bloggers outspoken, have a lot of time in the centers of conversations

Illiad example of extracting information

live video
info spreads much quicker

overview of diff industry specific activities in podcasting right now and perspective
Burgeoning networks
yatta at rocketboom quotes – apr 2 2007
not the kind of networking and sharing of data – the networks we have now have not been operating on that model and we may have a prob
business model is a problem
point of business is to maximize money
record labels example – commercial maximixing, not the art
huge bands that make the labels lots of money
big band carry weight

(streaming the feed now)

decisions imp for progressing get stuck
most of the businesses of networks have venture capital plan
get investment, get roadmap, maximize cash for sale
if we dont have an exit strategy, – networks seem to be out to max the amount of cash they can earn
a lot of experimentation
concerning to him b/c the artists on the networks for the most part are disenchanted
hearing the same stereotypical sentiment he is hearing from bands

need more innovation so that these co’s dont get stuck in the same bad model

Advertising – by 2011 – should drastically increase ad spend on podcasting
no one has come up with good proposal for podcasters to make more money beyond advertising
chance to make the most with ads
most $$$ per individiual viewer
future – looking into seeing what the big entities are leveraging (google, DC, yahoo)
thru youtube and google, use the systems in place to do rev shares
trad media still looking at licensing deals
leave it up to the licensing people

where is this going – cant help but bring up Dave WIner –
foresight into the ad industry
feels he has too much of an extremist view on where it will go
AB – agrees wiht the sentiment – advertising is less and less effective – hard to fool people if you dont have the better product
can rise naturally without lobbying, other forces that bring it up

ANTI ADVERTISING – leveraging the audience you have to get feedback on the prod and svcs to get better and grow
feels good in terms of society and being bombarded with advertising

Chevy Tahoe example

Citizen tube
John Edwards

2x as many people getting their info this way
2x the amount of participation
what won the election last time was the TV commercial

this time – how much of a diff will it make
people who are flex, could be swayed – not the increase and coming on line will not be as great as hoped
coming to terms with idea – 2 yrs from now, how much things can progress

thinks TV will win next election

International influence
can vote and influence
now you have the intl world ready to participate

if the intl people cant participate – problematic

CES and tech industry
roadmap for the next year
all heard the apple tv coming, iphone coming, wimax and fiber

Podcaster standpoint – appletv expands distro
go HD
taking action based on future tech – and leveraging it
as soon as it rolls out – podcasters talking about 3G files and what it takes

predicting and getting out there

Verizon FIOS – in cities and state
increase in bandwidth – lots of change – in consumption, participation

enough people had broadband to be able to get at audio and video content

know the inc in WIMAX will expedite bringing people on in other countries
increase audiences

WHere is video going ?

video tracking – going to be huge
where you take a look at the pict and ID where people would look
distinguish between colors and stuff
interpreting whats in the video
search and do things physically
outputs determined by what we see and do

speech to text (podzinger)
scan the video for the audio – convert to speech and text
70-80% success rate

growing fast
Paul Verillia – philosopher

how it works together

end of time now
end of time it takes to get info to you
barriers falling, gaps shrinking
not even a concern – happening so fast
there is no time between us
finding the time is the key

if you are fighting a war – the side wiht the info first has the advantage
upper hand
stocks the same thing
creates power of influence

fractals from chaos math

fern photo
keep zooming in – has same structure and patterns
people in terms of time conversation – get the most abstract

how these philosophies fit together

chaos theory – as you zoom in and find inf0 – its like it is already there
just you accessing it – already there
what we see is diff than what we see – not the actual – still there, not there to us
if already there – moving thru it – always used in back of head to give the confidence that looking into the future is an adequate way to do it

understanding all this stuff – just do it and participate

ends on more abstract note

moment of democratization of media – sys in place, participate in it – und where it is going and where it is going in a way that makes you happy but worthwhile

you need to go out and participate

DotSUb – translation and internationalization of content
people translate it
upload the video
like youtube – and embed the videos

distro on apple tv
access to that

coming to these events you end up plugging yourself in
hey – we want rb here or there

most colleagues – go out and call themselves
bloggers have the megaphones

basically plug in the authorities – and the conversation makers
get resources that way